Biblical Wisdom for Approaching Wealth, Money & Your Work - Roy Goble

How important are wealth and money to your job, and how important should they be? What insight can the Bible offer about how we approach wealth and money? Our guest today, Roy Goble, has wrestled with these issues throughout his career. He is the CEO of a real estate investment firm in Silicon Valley, and he is the author of the new book, Junkyard Wisdom Rebuilt: Resisting the Whisper of Wealth in a World of Broken Parts.

Scripture References

• Luke 2:22-24
• Matthew 21:12-13
• Galatians 2:10
• 1 Timothy 6:17-19

Additional Resources Referenced

Junkyard Wisdom Rebuilt: Resisting the Whisper of Wealth in a World of Broken Parts, by Roy Goble

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Transcript

​​Leah Archibald: Making It Work is brought to you by The Max De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Theology of Work Project.

Mark Roberts: Welcome to Making it Work.

LA: Through conversation, scripture and stories, we invite God into work’s biggest challenges... so that you can live out your purpose in the workplace.

MR: I’m Mark Roberts.

LA: And I’m Leah Archibald. And this is Making It Work.

The world of workplace compensation is changing rapidly. Today, we're living through what some people are calling the Great Resignation. Workers are leaving jobs and salaries that used to entice them. It seems like a good time to ask the question, how important is money to your job, and how important should it be?

Our guest today, Roy Goble, has wrestled with the issue of money throughout his career. He is the CEO of a real estate investment firm in Silicon Valley, and he is the author of the new book, Junkyard Wisdom Rebuilt: Resisting the Whisper of Wealth in a World of Broken Parts. Roy Goble, welcome to the Making It Work podcast.

Roy Goble: Hey, thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun, and that was a very generous introduction. Thank you.

LA: Well, thank you. I want you to unwrap this kind of taboo subject for us because there's this tension around money. On one hand, it can be this incredibly positive force, because of what you can do with it, but on the other hand, money can be negative, because there's a temptation there to maybe base all your decisions around money.

So I just wanna start from your own personal experience, Roy, how have you experienced the tension between the positive and the negative effects of money in your work?

RG: Yeah, that's a very true statement, that there is this tension between having a lot of money and also wanting to be a faithful follower of Christ. I think that's a unique temptation, and it's what I write and speak about quite a bit. It's also something that I've had to struggle with and fight through all of my adult life. I was fortunate enough to be financially successful at a very young age in my 20s, and I'm in my 60s now, and there was this moment where my wife and I were both kinda struggling with what this wealth was doing in terms of our spiritual lives, but also our social lives.

It was creating walls between us and others, because they were uncomfortable with the new car we bought, or the nice house we had or something like that. And these were friends that we had known for years. My wife and I actually met when we were 14, so we had a lot of similar friends and they were uncomfortable with that.

So this created an awareness for us that we were living in the midst of this tension, where we wanted to be good friends, good parents, good spouses. We wanted to be good employers at my company. But we also had this constant sort of temptation, I call it the "whisper of wealth", that was pulling us in a different direction.

Where we landed on this, Leah, was in a kind of a unique spot where we said, "You know what, it feels like the church gives us two choices." We're either to sell it all and go and live with the poor, the way sort of a Mother Teresa model, or St. Francis or a more modern day Shane Claiborne. Or we're supposed to just view the wealth of something that's a massive blessing and just not feel guilty about it, not struggle with it, not feel the tension about it, just enjoy it.

And to us, neither was right. So we have been intentional, and when I say "intentional", I mean we made a lot of mistakes, but we've tried to be intentional about living in the midst of that tension and just accepting it and saying, "That's the very tension that brings us to God." So I could sell everything and go and live with the poor, or I could just not think about it and assume that the wealth that we have is something that is entirely God's plan and we're just supposed to enjoy it.

But in doing either one, for me at least, I don't feel like I would need God more, because it would be a one-and-done decision. I would much rather actually struggle with our wealth on a regular, consistent basis, sometimes it's literally hourly, but it's certainly daily, where you're making these financial decisions.

And if you develop the habit of just saying, "I'm going to bring this to God and wrestle with God," then I actually think God shows up in the midst of that. So I find God shows up in the tension, which is what we love and enjoy, and it has guided us for the last, whatever it's been, 35 years or so.

LA: Now, I don't think you have to be exorbitantly wealthy to experience this tension of whether or not you make decisions about your work or about your social set based on money. I think many people struggle with this tension of how important is decision-making, is money to your decision-making. Mark, I wanna bring you into this conversation. Do you feel this similar tension in your life?

MR: I do, and I'm sure it's different from Roy's, but it's as real in where I live and so many others, and some of that is just the things that my wife, Linda and I... We're coming up on the end of the year and we need to decide, "Well, how much do we give away and how much do we save?" And there are those questions.

But I have Christian friends, for example, I have a Christian friend very much like me in many ways, he has decided he is never going to get like a Starbucks coffee anymore, he's just gonna brew his own coffee at home cheaply and then put all the money he was putting into coffee into helping others. Now, you could be a college kid, a high school kid, and wrestle on that level, and I just think it's fascinating.

I'm challenged by that to think through, "Well, why do I still wanna get a really good coffee sometime?" And so again, I think all of us, just about all of us can wrestle with this. Obviously, there are some in the world who are extremely poor and don't really have this particular challenge. I think that the reason this is so important is that there's a real temptation for Christians, and I've got it.

They say," Well, I'm not really rich. I'm just average. And so the people gotta worry about it are the people who are really rich," and that's a very convenient way of getting off the hook, and I just don't... I know we shouldn't do that, I find it tempting sometimes to do that.

LA: Well, let me ask you Roy, this question. We're in a moment where there's a lot more focus on why do we do what we do at work? If people are leaving jobs in droves, either because the risk factors are different than they were before or the money is not enough. I wonder if the decision making around money and work is changing. Do you see that as a person who thinks a lot about money in society?

RG: Yes, definitely. I would also say that what you were just talking about where you don't have to be super rich or a millionaire to struggle with these issues, that's reflected in the very thing you just asked me. It's a privilege to think, "Hey, I may not have to go to work tomorrow. I'm at an age where my retirement has kicked in, or my pension has kicked in," or whatever your financial planning has allowed you to say, "I'm just gonna step back now." That's part of this massive labor shortage that we're having right now.

That's a privilege, isn't it? It's something that the poor don't get a choice about.

So yeah, I think there is a very big shift going on. I am nowhere near smart enough to know what that means, or where we're gonna land on this. I mean, I'm a real estate developer, I'm not a sociologist. But I will say the shift is absolutely happening and we're seeing folks kind of stepping back and going, "Wow, I didn't really find meaning in work. Maybe I can find meaning in something else."

LA: So you are a real estate developer, as you said, you're also a faithful Christian. When you read the bible, are there particular verses that jump out at you on this topic when you think about, what is a godly way to think about money?

RG: Yeah, it's funny you should ask that. As Mark knows, I wrote a series of devotions for Advent and really love doing it, and when it was over, I kind of missed it, so I just continued on with the story for my own personal study, and I came across the passage about Mary and Joseph, Jesus is eight days old, I think, and it was time to bring them to the temple.

They made a sacrifice in the temple, and they sacrificed a pigeon, or a dove, depending on your translation. And that's an old Mosaic allowance from the Mosaic Laws for the poor, that if you can't afford the full-blown sacrifice, which was expensive, then you could sacrifice something much more affordable, which would be a pigeon.

And it made me smile because it reminded me of how these little details show up throughout Scripture that just continually show how much God loves the very poor. And then fast forward to that, I'm writing some devotions now around the Easter story and Lent, and you've got Jesus showing up at the temple in Jerusalem and throwing all the money changers out.

Well, if you read the detail of that, one of the groups He specifically went after, and the folks that wrote the story thought it was important enough to include, was He specifically went after the pigeon traders. And again, it made me smile because He's going after the people that are manipulating the system presumably, and were exploiting the poor.

It made me smile to think, okay, there's this story with pigeons in the first eight days or so of Jesus' life, and there's the story of pigeons in the last eight days of His human life at least. I just find that remarkable that these little details constantly pop up. And there's this other story about where Paul's writing to the Galatians and he said, "The very mandate that I was given, the only mandate I was given by the so-called pillars of the church was to not forget the poor."

And so arguably the greatest missionary effort in history, had one condition and that was, "Don't forget the poor." So as he went off, left Jerusalem and he went to Antioch and he went to Corinth, and he ended up in Rome and so on, he was given the charge, "Don't forget the poor." And what's unique about that from our perspective is Paul wasn't going to the poor, he was actually going to the rich and the influential.

I can just see some very wise person saying, "If Paul goes off and interacts with all these rich and powerful people, it would be easy for him to also give in to that whisper of wealth, to give in to that whisper of fame, to give in to that whisper of just authority and being part of the power structure. So let's remind him, don't forget the poor." So when I read Scripture, I just come across that over and over and over again.

LA: What does that really speak to you in terms of what actions do you take for yourself out of that, when you read the story of Jesus relating to pigeons in the first eight days and he last eight days of His life? How does... Or Paul's stressing the importance of not forgetting the poor. What is that? What do you take away from that? For the way that you deal with money.

RG: Yeah, let's go back to the question earlier about tension, and one of the tensions we dealt with was, I grew up working in my dad's junkyard, I grew up working with people who were poor. This was a starter job for a lot of 'em, many were folks that were uneducated, maybe they were just out of prison or whatever. And then fast forward from that a couple of decades, and now I'm working with the very wealthy and I'm working with city leaders and that kind of thing.

So there's this tension that we live in, or I live in at least, and I read this stuff in Scripture and it just makes me smile 'cause it reminds me of all those people I knew in the junkyard. It reminds me of the folks who struggle to pay their bills, and it reminded me that I can't forget them. I need to constantly be sensitive to their plight and working to improve their plight to the best of my ability.

So we live out our lives, or again, I should say we try to live out our lives, to lift up others as much as possible. We are very engaged in a variety of different non-profit organizations that serve the poor. I started, along with some friends, an organization called PathLight that works with at-risk kids in Central America. So we're trying to keep that connection in the midst of living and working in a very wealthy area.

LA: I thought you were gonna say you started an organization called Pigeons For The Poor.

RG: I should. That would be cool.

LA: Because that would be just be great alliteration in the title.

RG: Yeah, you absolutely... We need to trade mark that. That's a good one, I like that. [chuckle]

Maybe it's a chapter in my next book.

LA: "Pigeons for the poor". Well, Mark, let me ask you this question. I wonder if you could give us more context about the sacrificial system, and what does it mean that God put in place different tiers of sacrifice, and what might "pigeons for the poor" be translated into in our modern parlance today?

MR: That's a good question. And as you know, Leah and Roy, the sacrificial system was pretty complex, but one of the things that is certainly true about it is that, as Roy said, God set it up so you didn't have to be a person of much wealth at all, you could be poor and still participate.

Another part of it that I love, there are certain times when people who are people of means bring their sacrifices to the temple, part of it gets sacrificed and it's for the priest, and then the rest of it gets to be eaten as a feast for the whole community, including the poor. So there's this inclusivity of the poor, and you just, you find that all the way through Scripture. But I think when we...

One of the places that it really stands out for us is when Jesus is watching people giving gifts to the temple, and those who are wealthy giving larger gifts, and then this woman gives just a couple of pennies, and He says that she gave more than all of them, because she gave all they had. You know, that's an incredible encouragement, I think it's gonna be, to folk who have relatively little financially, but you can still give to God.

Now, that's also true, I've gotta say for gifts other than money, right? Maybe you think, "I can't write, I can't speak. I don't have some of the gifts that are more prominent." No matter what you have, you can offer it and you can offer yourself to God fully, and God isn't saying, "Well, Roy isn't so good 'cause his book didn't sell as much as Rick Warren's I really love Rick Warren."

God is saying, "Roy... " The question, what does Jesus think about your book? I think one thing Jesus would say is, "You know, you're using these gifts I've given you and I'm glad for that, Roy." But again, it isn't about the number of sales or it isn't about the size of the gift, it's really about the offering of yourself, and then the offering of whatever it is God has given you, generously and sacrificially.

LA: Well, this gets us back to the question we were asking at the top, which is, how much does money affect what it is you do for a living? And I'm wondering, Mark, you're saying here, "Well, we can donate our gifts and skills and wisdom." Do you think... Roy, let me ask you this question first, do you think money should be a decision-making factor in what you do to answer God's calling to work?

RG: I think it's one of them, yes. And the reason I say that is, it's a tool like anything else, it's an opportunity to do some amazing things. I mentor several people, and one of the questions I often get is, "I'm just not finding any satisfaction at work, and sometimes I think I ought to quit and just go hand out sandwiches to the homeless."

Now, I'm using that as just a metaphor. I don't think anybody's literally told me that, but they think I need to go to Africa to really make a difference or whatever, and I just laugh at them, frankly, I just go, "Can you get over yourself for a minute."

LA: I bet they love that, Roy. I bet they really love that when you laugh in their face. [chuckle]

RG: They have to sign a pledge when they become a mentee, so I definitely, I kick their butts quite a bit. And I don't use "butts" when I tell them I'm going to do that. So there's this tendency, I think, to be very sort of, "Oh wow, I'm not getting any meaning out of my work," and I'll laugh and go, "Are you kidding me? You've got stock options, you've got a car allowance, you're able to give away X% of your income. You can make a huge difference because of wealth, the money that you're being paid to work." So yes, it is one function.

That said, it's certainly not the only function. You can be paid a lot of money to do some very bad stuff, and I think you have to balance it with several other different inputs to decide, "Is this the right thing for me to do or not?"

LA: Was this where the whisper of wealth temptation comes in, do you think?

RG: Yes, definitely. People get on a track of bigger and better, and wealth just, it's corrupting, and it can get into your system and you begin to measure everything through that lens. It keeps you from God. It gives you this false hope. One of the things I've talked about many times is that we are to place our hope in God, and all too often we place our hope in our wealth.

Now, I know that's a kind of a "duh" kind of a statement, but I challenge people, give away your hope. Give away the hope that you have in your wealth, in your income, in your possessions, and instead give that to the folks that need it the most. Because in doing so, you're giving them hope. So it's a challenge, I think, to find the right balance, of course, but as I said earlier, that's when God shows up is when we're struggling to find that right balance.

LA: Yeah. I have, I have to admit, I've definitely felt that sense of, "Oh, if I could just make 20% more." It's always just 20% more. You know? Than I'm making right now. But if I could just make... Then I'd really, really... Then I wouldn't have to worry. Then I wouldn't have to worry. And then I make a little bit more and it's like, "Oh, if I could just, could just make 20% more, then I would really be comfortable."

And I think there's a part of that putting your hope in wealth that always presses it into the future, some future sense of comfort, versus being present in the moment that God's given us today. Jesus said to His disciples, "The poor will always be with you." I feel that that pointed to a moment, a present moment like, "Here you are. What are the needs of the people around you today?" As opposed to pressing the needs into the future, "Oh, if only. If only we got to this level then we'd be okay." Mark, tell me I'm not alone.

MR: Well, what's so interesting Leah, is that one of my absolute favorite passages in Scripture having to do with wealth, actually talks a lot about the future, but in a different way.

LA: Bring it on, let's hear it.

MR: Well it's in 1 Timothy 6, and there's an earlier passage in 1 Timothy 6 that talks about, "The love of money is the root of all evil," and that's important, and maybe we'll talk about that or not, but a little further on. So 1 Timothy 6:17, and it goes on through, let me actually read it, through 19, "As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches." So you were talking about... You were talking about hope. It's in this. So, "Don't set your hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God." Roy, that's exactly what you were saying.

"Who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment." Which is just fascinating. "They," that is the rich, "are to do good, to be rich in good works. Generous, ready to share." Now, here it comes, Leah, "Thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life."

There is so much we could... I'm a preacher, I won't do this to you, to our audience, but I mean this vision of... Part of it, it is living in the present, but it's also in light of the future, the hope we have in God, in the future that God has for us, that empowers us and urges us to live in a very different way with whatever the resources God has entrusted to us.

And if that we happen to be wealthy, this text does not say, "Sell it all and be poor," it says, "Rather, use what God has given you to do good and be generous and be ready to share." But it also mentions that God richly provides for us for our enjoyment. That suggests it isn't entirely wrong, every now and then, to go to a really good coffee place and pay five bucks for coffee once in a while, if that's your form of enjoyment. But don't get stuck in that that, be rich in good works. Be generous, etcetera. I think that's an amazing text when it comes to thinking about money.

RG: I think Paul stole that from my book, because that's pretty much what my book says. [chuckle]

MR: You know, "That Paul." Or it might be the other way around.

RG: It could be. It's possible. [chuckle]

LA: I think he was definitely... He was definitely paraphrasing you, Roy.

RG: Yeah.

LA: So then Roy, I'll ask you to explain, because the last verse that Mark read in 1 Timothy 6:19 says, "In order to take hold of the life that is truly life, that's why we're gonna be generous and do good deeds and give money away." What does it mean, I just wanna sit on this phrase for a little bit, "take hold of the life that is truly life? Roy, give us an image of what is for you, the life that's truly life, maybe in juxtaposition to this whisper of wealth that is not life-giving?

RG: Great question. So where my mind goes as I think about your question is a bit of advice a mentor of mine gave me, and what he said was that what our role is as just followers of Christ, but as human beings in general, comes down to having authentic relationship, and it's authentic relationship with each other, with friends and family and neighbors, and authentic relationship with God.

And so the life that I think of when I think about a genuine life, a life that matters, the life that God wants to give us, is this genuine, authentic, transparent relationship with each other.

LA: And you think, you know, you're saying at the beginning, in your experience, wealth got in the way of that a little bit, or got in the way between you and your friends.

RG: It absolutely did. It still does. It creates power dynamics that I'm often not even aware of, and it takes a real conscious effort to break through that. And that's part of this... That's part of the corruption of wealth, is that it can corrupt our relationships with others.

MR: Yeah, isn't that the truth? I worked for a while very closely with a man who is extremely wealthy, had billions, literally, and all of his... Well, not all, he had many healthy relationships, but because he was wealthy, people treated him in very odd ways. And one of the things that was clearly going on, especially with non-profit people like me, is they were wanting him to give them money.

And so it was... And so for him, it was so hard to know if people were being authentic, and I watched, I watched people just pretend. It was really weird. It was first time I thought in my life, "You know, there is a serious downside to having money." Now, there's upside and there's all that, but it was really, it corrupted relationships. And again, I'm not suggesting he was corrupted in the relationship. In the way that people related to him.

And you see that all the time, and that's just one example, but it's a pretty powerful... For me, it was a pretty powerful lesson of what you're talking about, Roy, or part of what you're talking about.

RG: Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. And it's true as well, you don't have to be wealthy to have that struggle. I meant to say this earlier, that the last time I looked it up, if you wanna be in the 1% globally, all you need to do is earn about $35,000 a year, and you're in the 1% globally. So when we talk about wealth here, we don't have to be talking about people that are making six-figure income or higher. It's pretty much all of us and those of us that are gonna be listening to this podcast.

LA: How do you lean into God in those moments where you're like, "I'm not sure if money is affecting this decision or not."?

RG: Well, you have to have a community around you that holds you accountable, and this is something that was really hard for me to do at the start, it's a little easier now. But I have a prayer partner that I've prayed with for 25 years. I have an amazing wife that has no problem at all looking me in the eye and saying, "This is not the right thing to do." And so there's this sense of a accountability. My kids are older. They're in their 30s now. They actually hold me accountable. Even folks at work will hold me accountable.

I can remember a financial decision I was about to make it work, and my chief operating officer looked at me and said, "Is this about a good financial decision, or this about ego?" And it cut to the core. But I want people around me that will do that, and I want to just make myself vulnerable to them, and I don't like it, but that's part of it.

The harder part is to do this on the simpler day-to-day decisions, the little things like the $5 coffee or whatever. So those are things that I think you have to ask people. You have to talk to them and say, "How do you make these decisions?" We don't talk enough about that. And then get other ideas and listen to other people what they're doing.

MR: So true. Yeah, it's one of those things that we get very squeamish about, and very much in Christian community. I remember that just from a sort of opposite example, now many years ago, I was in this small group with three other guys and one of the guys thought it was really important for us to actually talk about our personal finances in the group, and really honestly, like show what we make and what we do with it. And the others were like, "Whoa, I'm all in favor of accountability and vulnerability, but... "

Anyway, we decided to do it. And the interesting thing was, I was by far the lowest guy in the... The guy who suggested it actually was making a ton of money, and he was needing some accountability and support, and it was an amazing thing. But honestly, in terms of groups, that's the only place that I've ever done anything like that. I do have friends and really close people, and my wife, but I think as Christians, we're squeamish about money.

And it gets back to what you were saying, Roy, it makes things weird and hard, we're not at peace about it. And that's gotta be a growth edge for us individually, but then as you say, also as Christians together in community.

RG: Yeah.

LA: So Roy, what do you hope people will take away when they read your book?

RG: I would love to see people break down walls between us and others. I think wealth builds walls, we tend to associate with people that are like ourselves, so we tend to shop in the same places that are the quality we want and fit our budget.

So we tend to be around people that are kind of in the same economic category that we're in. We tend to buy the same cars, we tend to live in the same neighborhoods, we tend to use the same insurance companies, whatever. All of that translates into the sort of building of walls between us and people that are different from us, and I found that was the "aha" moment for me, about this whole journey of work and wealth and living in that tension.

LA: How do you think decisions around work and money can break down those walls, and what is the first step? What's a piece of advice that you would give to people?

RG: I used to actually intentionally drive home a different way than the most direct way. This is silly, but I would drive through the bad neighborhoods on my way home, just to stop at a different coffee shop or to run into the 7-Eleven to buy a newspaper or whatever, in a different kind of a neighborhood. It sounds silly, but it actually allowed different small daily relationships to be formed.

And then also a lot of volunteer work, volunteer with folks where you're going to meet people that are different from you. Engage with people socially, accept the invitations you get to parties or events, even if there are people that are unlike you. And invite them back, there's a good biblical reference for you there about, "Hey, if you get invited to a party, you're gonna invite them back."

So it can be the simplest things. Find the person at work that is the most different from you and try to build a real relationship. Now, it might not work, and you might fall flat on your face and you might look absolutely stupid. Well, hello, that's life, and that's okay. And if you can operate with a sense of forgiveness and operate with a sense of true love for other, then it can be a wonderful experience.

LA: Mark, do you have any additional tactics, advice from your life on breaking down walls around money, or even just talking about money more?

MR: Well, that's a good question. Roy's talked about community more than once, and I think part of it is being in relationship of sufficient trust and mutual love, that you can actually talk about the hard things in life. And you know the funny thing is it isn't just money. It's all of the things in life that we have a hard time talking about. It can be parenting, it can be sexual intimacy, all these things that are really tough for us. So partly if we're gonna talk about them in community, we need a kind of community that allows it. That's one thing.

But Roy, what you were saying about breaking down walls, I mean, in a different context, that's exactly what Bryan Stevenson is saying about building racial justice and reconciliation. One of his, and he's amazing, and one of his big points is proximity. You gotta be near the people. You can't just stand back at a distance and look at them from far away. You need to be near them.

As you said, it's so true that so much of our current life in the wider society, in business and in the church, divides us up in different ways, and so it's a challenge for us to think about how could I really get to know people who, for example, really have very little financially? In a way that's respectful and relational and mutual.

Not just, "Well, I'm gonna drop in at a soup kitchen and give some money," but, "How can I do that?" And that's a very different way of thinking, but I just wanna say that you're bringing this wisdom in this case, but Bryan Stevenson is saying, "Hey, this is also huge for other kinds of relationship building and reconciliation and justice, like racial justice." And of course, we do have Jesus who did that, right?

RG: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MR: You know it's amazing. Jesus hung out with all different kinds of people, and you see Him hanging out with the rich and the poor and the Pharisees, and it just, it's so interesting. So generally, it's a pretty good idea to try and follow Jesus and imitate Him. So we can do that here too.

RG: It's generally a pretty good idea. I agree. Mark, we have a mutual friend in Michaela O'Donnell and Michaela and I are putting the finishing touches on a study guide right now that's gonna be released with my book. We call it a "tool box", so it fits the junkyard theme. We built it around what I call the "junkyard rules for life". Which is first, attack ego, because if you operate in any way, shape, or form with an ego, you're gonna fail.

And then second, shut up and listen. Which is key. And you can't really do it if you have an ego. But the third, to your point, is operate in community. So it just flows together where it's viciously attack your ego, shut up and listen, operate in community. And if you do that, I think the walls start to break down.

MR: Yeah, that's great. I should just add, so Leah had asked earlier, so what could people get out of your book? I mean, I just need to say Roy, one of the things I like about you is you're a very interesting and fun writer. So I read a lot of Christian stuff, and a lot of it's really, really good, but it's rarely funny or off the wall or stuff.

One of the things I love about reading you, so I want our readers to know, if you just want something that's gonna be fun, I mean it's gonna be challenging, but it's also gonna be fun and different and stories. It's like, "Wow, I've never heard a story like that." I mean, your book will do that too.

Now, I know you've got the main point, but I want folks to know that this is really an unusual opportunity, and partly 'cause of your life and your junkyard background, and partly just 'cause of who you are. So they can have a lot of fun, as well as being educated and challenged and inspired and all that sort of thing.

LA: It's true and we made you talk about the hard stuff today, Roy. We made you talk about money and get very serious, but you know, I did enjoy spending time with your writing throughout reading the book, because growing up in a junkyard is a different experience. You have a lot of interesting work-related stories, and I wonder if it's because your work brought you in contact with so many different types of characters. That's part of where this idea of breaking down walls in community maybe comes from.

RG: Yeah, I'm quite sure it is. Absolutely. Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it. Mark, I'm glad you enjoyed the book. Leah, I'm glad you've enjoyed it as well. So it's awesome.

LA: Well, Roy Goble, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you today. Thank you for joining us on the podcast.

RG: It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me here.

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